Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with journalist, author, and political commentator Douglas Murray. They discuss his current U.S. speaking tour, the difference between malevolent and genuine protests, the upending of cultural institutions at the altar of false virtue, and how the demoralization of the majority will only lead to further unrest.
Douglas Murray is a journalist and bestselling author of seven books. His latest publication is the international bestseller, “The War On The West.” His previous book, “The Madness of Crowds,” was a bestseller and “book of the year” for The Times and The Sunday Times. “The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam,” published in 2017, spent almost 20 weeks on The Sunday Times bestseller list and was a number 1 bestseller in non-fiction. Mr. Murray has been a contributor to The Spectator since 2000 and has been associate editor at the magazine since 2012. He is a columnist for The New York Post, The Free Press, The Sun, The Telegraph, and contributes regularly to National Review and numerous other outlets.
This episode was recorded on August 7th, 2024
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– Chapters –
(0:00) Coming up
(0:29) Intro
(3:48) Douglas Murray’s Live Nation speaking tour
(6:46) Object lessons based on extraordinary circumstances
(8:52) The “rich history of protest” and the need for a great call
(11:14) The cardinal call to existence: adventure, hedonism, or something else?
(14:11) Rebellion for the sake of rebellion
(17:47) From those who studied evil scientifically: “it feels like a force that descends”
(23:07) What psychology tells us about gleeful evil
(29:10) Tommy Robinson and the UK protests
(41:23) When the politicians continue to ignore and insult the public…
(47:35) The epithet of “Far Right” has lost its meaning
(49:19) We’re coasting downward on the idea of moral relativism
(51:28) What’s driving mass immigration to the West
(55:35) The problem of integration: founding ideas, ethnicity, and culture
(58:16) “You don’t have a culture” is a great lie levied by bad actors
(59:51) The madness of demoralizing the majority population
(1:06:53) Progressing polite instincts into policy, “diversity is our strength”
(1:12:40) Rates of radicalization
(1:16:33) Cassandra, the prophetess, and the role of the prophet
(1:19:34) A profound form of loss and the remarkable traditions of the West
(1:23:13) We should be continuing, not reframing and deconstructing
(1:25:56) History is made by great men and women, you can be one too
(1:33:17) The idiocy of thinking we are meant to judge Shakespeare
(1:36:44) The way down and the way up: it’s your choice
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The leftists and Islamists actually have the same goal, the destruction of traditional Christian values that the western tradition is based on. Leftists think they will inherit power from the ashes of the culture, and the Islamists believe they will conquer the world for Allah. Both are from the evil one, because they are both (Islam and Marxist leftism) doctrines of demons.
Islam has been at war with the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) since it was founded in the sixth century. Anyone who has read Raymond Ibrahim's books, particularly Sword and Scimitar, knows, or should know this. Anyone who thinks what Hamas terrorists did on Oct 7 was new is quite ignorant of history. Read an accurate account of the Battle of Vienna – after the defeat of the caliphate Ottoman army, the victorious Poles went into the massive (more than a million jihadists) abandoned camp, and found over 10,000 beheaded Christian slaves, many of them children.
The widespread amnesia of the 20th century caused an effective lobotomization of entire western populations when it comes to Islam. Islam CANNOT renounce the murderous commands of Islam because to do so would be to completely repudiate the entire cult. The Charlie Hebdo murders were NOT an aberration -they were just a modern example of what occurred daily prior to the 19th century in Muslim nations around the world.
The childish utopianism of leftists/activists will NOT save them if they continue to ally themselves with Islam – unless they bow to the demon called Allah they will pay with their lives (slaughter (jihad) or slavery (dhimmis)). They are simply as Marxists call them "useful idiots".
Not sure why people need to go off in search of the meaning of life, or meaning in life, all the time. I suspect the vast majority of people are too busy finding ways to survive and to either punctuate the daily grind or punctuate the boredom with moments of small joys. There is no problem with seeking activities (or careers) aligned to a higher goal or calling but whether that should translate into mean is surely a matter of chance/luck and ones personal psychological make up. After more than 50 years on the planet I find myself content to simply work to ensure the security and wellbeing of my family and to bring up my young son in a way that enables him to learn from my experience and mistakes (openly and honestly shared) and to be better than me. For what else is there but to seek to help out children exceed us? That is the only route to progress and reward enough. Beyond that are the simple pleasures of experiences with friends and family, breaking bread together, a good book, time to think and to not think but just “stand and stare”, playing some sports and so on. Mostly prosaic things, with a hint of poetry from time to time.
However, I stand ready and willing to take up a cause when necessity demands and if it aligns with the forgoing and of vital importance to my family and society. These days I can think of no other thing than defeating the dark forces of the globalist elites intent of undermining the West from within and establishing their tyrannical One World Government. To paraphrase Tolkien, who knew a thing or two about dark times and the evil that men do:
“One government to rule them all,
One government to find them,
One government to bring them all,
And in the darkness bind them “
The manifestation of evil is called satan. He wants you to think he is not real.
I wonder if there is such a thing as a 'safe space' for evil. On the subject of evil manifesting in the world. War always gives the opportunity for evil beyond the evil of the war itself.
In that room with the two young boys, once the first step had been taken, that was a safe space for evil. Why go back? If you've allowed evil to manifest, why not keep going?
Good doesn't need a safe space. No one is worried about being 'caught' doing something good, but evil needs secrecy or circumstances to hide itself.
Protest for the sake of protest is a form of hedonism. Where there is a real cause that is material and vital to the society a protestor (or revolutionary) os part of then it is likely to be justified and fulfilling BUT if it is at odds with ones society and as a result of indoctrination and without careful thought and self challenge then it is likely to be motivated by perversion, naivety or pure evil…. Lot of that about these days…
Its a pity you can only like once. I find myself wanting to hit that button a lot. especially when it is so relevant to real life and expectations. Thank you for this it was beautiful for the soul.
If you know, you know …. You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off (in a cockney accent)
I listened to this for about 13 min and start thinking, this is a difficult matter to the discuss. I hope more people understand this and don't misinterpreted the discussion.
As a black person, my problem is black americans merging my struggle as a black person with that of islamists, who re currently carrying out jihad against africans like me as we speak.
Freedom of Speech, religious freedom and capitalism where invented by the Dutch
The Netherlands is the only country in Europe that was founded on an idea, be it copied by the USA to some extent
At 10:00… they are NoT "Throwing their lot in with Hamas…" what kind of idiocy is that framing?
Great talk! Thanks for this from Germany.
There exists a German word — Überfremdung — which could bring some clarity to the UK debate on immigration.
Will Douglas Murray appear in Dearborn or Detroit, with their large Muslim populations?
What is the function of the immigration policy in the West? To destabilise the West, and it is working. The the indigenous people kick off with riots etc it gives the globalist elites the justification for draconian laws curbing freedom and curbing democracy will be next. It is the same playbook as the Covid pandemic (and subsequent pandemics, and watch there will be a mystery rash of them…) and Woke ideology (ie hate speech laws) and of course climate alarmism. It is the slow boiling of frogs (we are the frogs) until one day you will real is with is too late to jump out of the pot… It is all about establishment of a One World Government, which by definition will be autocratic dictatorship and tyrannical.
I have no sympathy for Britain. I use to believe the common narratives of World War I and II, until I did a lot of reading. I found that Germany was clearly the good guys in World War I. Germany, not in name then, was a peaceful country. Britain forced a war because Germany was growing too powerful. Germany was not being threatening. Then Germany was forced into second war by being duped during the World War I surrender by President Wilson, and due to the subjugation of Germany into slave labor and even starvation by the Versailles Treaty forced by the allies, especially Britain.
Britain was also the true evil of World War II. We should have fought Japan, but stayed out of the European war. We shouldn't have even given Britain aid and weapons. Britain caused World War II, not Hitler. Hitler did want to take the land back stolen in World War I. When Hitler tried to negotiate what Poland had taken, Britain stopped the negotiations, and forced a war claiming it was to defend Poland. That was a lie. Britain didn't care about Poland, and gave Poland to Russia at the end of World War II.
If Britain hadn't of forced Hitler to fight France and Britain causing World War II, there still would have been a war, but not a World War. The West could have set back and watched two evil dictators, Stalin and Hitler, fight it out, and devastate each other. But Britain once again, as they have throughout history, always wants a fight. And in both world wars, Britain outsmarted and suckered the US into both of them, as they did the other English speaking countries. Winston Churchill was every bit the psychopath as Hitler. He even admitted it. He said that dispite thousands of Britain soldiers dying, the war gives him so much joy and pleasure.
I'm actually glad Britain has fallen to the pathetic state it now is: Karma. By 2050, the masters of Britain will be carrying the Quran.
I know both Douglas and Jordan have more nuanced opinions on single motherhood than they got into here, but I will say that the way single mothers were discussed here followed shortly thereafter by a pro-life pregnancy crisis ad encouraging women to keep their unexpected pregnancies was rather jarring. I too would encourage women to keep their pregnancies and avoid abortions, but I think it is dangerous water to tread when people speak on single motherhood in a highly negative way and without nuance but then expect young women to shoulder the burden of social stigma and shame by keeping the pregnancy.
I’m not advocating for single motherhood in replacement of the nuclear family, but the reality is many women will always find themselves for one reason or another in a position of single motherhood or making the decision of whether or not to become a single mother. I think we are better off supporting the nuclear family while simultaneously not socially maligning single mothers who actually choose not to abort, which is purportedly what those who also champion the nuclear family want.
I recognize this is a fine line to walk and also not the real point of this discussion, but that juxtaposition stood out to me while l was listening, and I thought of any young woman who might be experiencing a crisis pregnancy who might be listening and hearing such contradictory information thrust at her: keep your baby or you’re a terrible person, but you will also face lifelong shame and social alienation for doing so. For so many, social alienation is literally worse than death. If you want to be pro-life, you must offer love and support to women who want to keep their babies even if they become single mothers by doing so.
Love, love, love this. Two of my favorites!
Very great dialogue, but I really don’t understand why anti abortion advertising needs to be included here. Please get rid of that, it’s not needed or relevant to the conversation.
Has it crossed Douglas' mind that the hateful bile he and others of his ilk constantly spew is partly responsible for the anti-immigrant riots?
2 men I greatly admire for their eloquence and bravery, true examples of the noble masculine .. and perhaps a glimmer of hope is I see increasingly men who exlempify this principle stepping up.
Thank you Jordan and Douglas for having conversations like this. I believe they will work towards the saving of Western Civilization.
It's not like we don't have a very well documented historical record. But you talk describe the madness of what we're doing with allowing too many immigrants to the West but when looking for causes of what may motivating to allow this to occur, you discuss very general superficial ideas of what it could be. But you do not do do any historical research that one would expect an educated person to engage in order to discover causes of what you label as such important issues of mad self destructive behavior to the point of it posing an existential threat. Your complete lack of reasonable research is too absurd to not be intentional. You are playing the public for fools
By Occam's Razor there would be the obvious first place to look but you never have had the courage to mention it whatsoever. How dare you play obscurantist servant for these toxic other that have come in & exploited us tremendously at the time they are destroying our democracies, diminishing our nations future, destroying our cultures, our religion, & the racial Europeans everywhere they can in Europe & the Anglosphere diaspora. How obvious does it have to get that they are not only out to destroy us the world over, but well on the way in the process of actively destroying us, before you will be willing to speak out openly & honestly about it?
When Jordan Peterson claims that it in the future after our complete destruction people we say it was our naiveté & cowardice that allowed it to happen, he must know that he is guilty of such cowardice for having not spoken the truth about this. He is engaging in self condemnation a mea culpa here. No wonder he has such deep emotional break downs that require him to be hospitalized for several weeks from time to time. Douglas Murray is starting to come across as a sociopath so probably vulnerable to crippling guilty or any guilty feelings as Jordan Peterson is
Time is running short. They are coming down on us fast. If you want to avoid totalitarian takeover & ruin you need to speak out now if you want to have any hope of avoiding catastrophic ruin
I agree that we need to find our courage and become "remoralized". It would be interesting to determine which civilizations have risen through the nurturing of their citizens better instincts and better pasts and hopes for their future. What civilizations ethos have encouraged self sacrificing, honour, the view to protect and respect others and their lifestyle and the courage of conviction that creates the brave response in dangerous times.
Western Leaders have treated our countries like dirt.
They believe that when someone immigrates to the west they only need to live in the land, with no regard to the existing culture.
Western countries are not just land to live on but a culture that leads to a standard of living the world envies.
If you come to a western country, you must embrace the culture or the culture will wither.
I guess pretending ((who)) brought them in and championed immigration as a strength will be ignored?
If the English didn't do anything about immigration in the 1970s when it was 95% Brit's and they were told what would happen eventually. There is no hope. You will not be kicking anyone out. Your best hope is for them to leave on their own when you run out of money
Huge fan of jordan peterson but goodness he needs to let the other person talk more, especially when it's someone like douglas murray
The problem is the UN and the Elite One World Order. Time to take off your rosette!
Im 3 yo. And i can tell whats happaning in this world was created by big bros.
"Freedom in general is essentially identical to the West". Wow. You have absolutely no perspective outside your own cultural bias. That statement is alarmingly narrow-minded.
The common demomimator between the Left is God…a war on God. When you step back you can see what the bigger plan is. The destruction of this society is deliberate.
I've seen that rejoicing in evil acts over many years. My parents did that. It wasn't just the terrible acts it was the laughing, the joy and the buzz they got from it. It was exciting to them. It is so tragic to think how that is happening round the world during wars and attacks and the suffering inflicted. It gives the acts an entire new dimension that cuts deeper. x
It sounds like one of the most fundamental rifts in our society is between people who believe that human nature is ultimately unchanging, and people who believe that human nature is continually transcended through progress.
Ask who benefits from the invasion of the west? Who would benefit most from civil wars, internal conflict? For the UK, who or what countries would benefit most for aggresion towards the Muslim community? What does this mean for the rights of the people? Security? Resources? Freedoms?